An Indecent Level of Decency
Monday
WHEN I READ the following passage from an ABC story on Osama bin Laden's death, I was both proud and outraged. I was proud that I live in a culture that would not drag even bin Laden's body through the streets or defile it in a brutish way. But I was also outraged at the respect being shown to the ideology that kills so many innocent people. The article stated:
The Americans took Bin Laden's body into custody after the firefight and confirmed his identity. According to a senior administration official, the U.S. is "ensuring it is handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition. It's something we take seriously and therefore it's being handled in an appropriate manner."
Unbelievable.
43 comments:
It is unbelievable that we would do Islamic ritual crap over that carcass. Why not just set it on fire and dump into the sea?
Islamists will now seek to vent their fury on Christian minorities in Islamic nations.
The Pakistani Christians will be the most vulnerable.
See: http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=2787
The West and India need to stand by to evacuate Christians from Pakistan.
Pakistan will not be able to protect Christians from the enraged followers of Bin Laden.
At the same time Pakistan needs to be held accountable - Bin Laden could never have hidden there for a decade without the support of powerful elements within the Pakistan government and military.
The mask slips and we can see the depth of support that Pakistanis provided for Bin Laden:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iwJlUQvWu2rcrEOY-OKb9HFIiJBA?docId=CNG.4ec0d644f5638e40f182b6d39cbee4b3.21
When a federal lawmaker, Maulawi Asmatullah, leads the honouring of Bin Laden it shows the tip of the Islamic Iceberg lurking beneath the Pakistan Pretence of being an ally in the war against terrorism!
It also indicates the danger that all of us 'infidels' face from Islamists.
So much for Robert Fisk's 'Arab Spring' ... but I will be happy to be competely wrong!
The true colours of Hamas reveal themselves for all dhimwits, leftards and PCs to see:
"Haniyeh condemns killing of 'warrior' bin Laden"
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218882
The real value of eliminating Bin Laden lies in seeing what comes out of the Islamic woodwork in support of him.
How Hamas could stupidly align itself with Bin Laden is incredible!
But thanks, now we know for sure!
Perhaps even the Hordes of Western Useful Idiots amongst us infidels might pause and take note.
The Libyan rebels will need to watch their sentiments carefully in case Nato realises its futile mission there.
Another disappointed journalist, this time the Egyptian-American Mona Eltahawy. She seems to think it unseemly that Americans are celebrating at Ground Zero!
See: http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218862
In what delusional fantasy is she living in: after the brutal atrocities inspired by this fiend and his jihadist fanatics Americans should not celebrate?
As posted earlier, watch what comes out the woodwork to see what so many apologists for Islamist atrocities really think behind their 'professional' facades.
Personally, I think that if they kill in the name of Allah in order to gave access to paradise, we should stop the passage cold. Bury them with a slab of bacon running from the tip of the forehead down to the toes. And then let that fact be known, worldwide. The willingness to die and kill will drop.
A respectful burial shows our cultured nature but it wasn't deserved at all.
-Finally Figured Out Islam
Another point Robert Spencer made is that all this time all the politically correct politicians have been repeating that Osama bin Laden was taking verses out of context, was hijacking the peaceful religion of Islam, etc., so basically they were saying "he's not a real Muslim." And now they are making sure this avowed enemy who is not a Muslim is buried in a respectfully Islamic manner? It doesn't make any sense.
"An ideology which kills so many innocent people" to me that sounds as if it refers to the similar to the governments who invaded Iraq.
Innocents killed by Taliban and Al Qaeda: An estimated 15'000
Innocents killed by the USA and her allies in Iraq alone: Excess of 100'000.
I am pleased that your nation did not degrade him; however you have still condemned Osama as a murderer, then proceeded to kill him. There is an illogic to that very argument. There were 40 US Navy Seals when he was killed, what prevented them from taking him alive? Why didn't they use flashbangs? Why wasn't he trialed at the ICC? Osama has had a great injustice done unto him.
How many of you even know the 3 key aims of Al Qaeda? Their aims are not overtly radical or without reason. Their aims are what you would fight for if your nation was occupied and threatened by a foreign power.
What I do condemn Al Qaeda for are their methods. I despise terrorism and torture as much as any other person.
1. An end to the illegitimate political entity of Israel.
Possibly the most extreme of their aims.However, look at it from their side, Israel has murdered hundreds of innocent Palestinan civillians. If these people being murdered were Christians there would be a Western outrage.
2. Removal of all US military bases from the Middle East.
A fair aim, how does US military presence in the Middle East differ from the colonial powers of the 18th and 19th Centuries? Not by much.
3. Formation of an Islamic superstate.
Another fair aim. Europe got the European Union, North America have links in NATO and East Asia got the Shanghai Pact. Not one of these organisations represents Islam, the second largest religion in the world, yet with no superpower to represent it.
I'm open for debate with whoever desires one.
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Marsden
Marsden, it is more like this:
Innocents killed by Islam: 270 million.
Intention: Killed deliberately.
Reason: To impose a totalitarian system on unwilling people.
Innocents killed by the United States: unknown, but far far less.
Intention: Killed unintentionally, with the military often endangering their own lives by deliberately trying NOT to kill innocent civilians.
Reason: To free people from a totalitarian system that was imposed on unwilling people.
A little about me before I comment on this. My name is Rob, and I'm an Agnostic Humanist. There's gotta be a higher power in the universe, but it really doesn't care about us. It doesn't need our worship, our love, or our prayers and doesn't respond to our begging. We are not the only sentient beings in the universe either. I consider ANY and ALL organized religions invalid because all doctrines were written by men. Not gods, but men. Do I hate religion? No. There are pearls of wisdom within the doctrines of almost all of Earth's religions, but it's nothing a thousand monkeys sitting in front of typewriters couldn't eventually write up.
We would have figured out “Human rights” and “mutual respect” without religion eventually...
This post is for Marsden...
First off, your numbers concerning civilian deaths are way off. The actual count for Iraq can be found here -->http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ This organization isn't pro Middle east, nor pro American. They just want to get the numbers as accurate as possible so that a measure of humanity and dignity can be placed on all of those killed.
If you check out the “Analysis” tab and go directly to “Post-surge violence...” (the sixth one down on the page) you will see that civilian death was mostly caused by the insurgents and not the U.S. Islam does not care if civvies are taken out. Period. Roadside IED's, suicide bombers, mosques, marketplaces, police stations bombed, rival islamic denominations (sunni / shi'ite) executing each other, christians (and “pagans”) being driven out or killed... At least the USA actively punish their own that mess up (friendly fire, civvies targeted) and do what they can to minimize collateral damage.
The chaos that ALL jihadists and muhajadeen (sp) bring to the table is utter insanity. Modern Christian fundamentalists would never go that far, so you and every other islamist out there can forget “wishy washy” Christians from doing that too. Pagans and Neo-Shamanists? Never. Buddhists? You'd have to be insane. The worst they have ever done was set themselves on fire in protest. Hindus? Very much like the Israeli situation as they're sick of Pakistans' bullspit. Jews? Not a chance. BTW, poke a lion like Israel and they'll bite back, they've had enough of all the terror attacks, but I'll touch on that later.
The trend here, is that the koran and the ahadith are manuals for war, explaining exactly how to wage that war. No other religion has that. Not one.
Disclaimer: I think the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were pointless. From the very beginning, I've publicly stated that they will achieve nothing but debt for the United States (I'm Canadian, btw), economic hardship for the West and a whole load of misery for everyone. They could have spent a fraction of the money by sending in spies and agents to snuff out OBL. Also, these deaths wouldn't be happening if Saddam Hussein was still alive and in power. Yes, he was brutal (and a douche), but at least order in the region was maintained, compared to the chaos that exists today.
TO BE CONTINUED...
Part TWO:
Now...
“1. An end to the illegitimate political entity of Israel.
Possibly the most extreme of their aims.However, look at it from their side, Israel has murdered hundreds of innocent Palestinan civillians. If these people being murdered were Christians there would be a Western outrage.”
A- Israel has a right to exist. Here's why. A couple thousand years ago, it belonged to Jews. It was later conquered by the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, then Greece, then Rome (before Christ), and later, Christianity. Not long after that Islam invaded and took everything. Point being, it originally belonged to the Jews, it's their ancestral homeland. The modern formation of Israel happened because during World War 1, the ottoman empire sided with the Central powers (the “bad guys”). Britain wasn't going to have it, so they invaded and split the ottomans in half; thus creating a land bridge so they could aid their allies in India. They (Britain) conquered that area like everyone else did before them. So who does it really belong to? Simple, the United Nations recognized Israel as a state in 1948.
That was apparently too much for islam, so Egypt, Transjordan (Jordan), Syria, Lebanon and Iraq declared war on Isreal (it was initially a partitioned state between Arab and Jew). Israel won and claimed it all for itself.
Point? Israel fought for it's life while outnumbered and out gunned. They've earned that land in spades.
B- Muslims kill Christians daily. Christians suffer complete massacres across Africa and ethnic cleansing in the middle east / Persia / Indian subcontinent. If there was any outrage by Christians over this, ALL of the middle east and ALL islamic enclaves would have been crushed already. Christians know better though. They believe that loving and praying for your enemy is more humane than going to war (if someone smites you on one cheek, offer the other). Modern Christians don't act like savages, they have evolved (for the most part).
“2. Removal of all US military bases from the Middle East.
A fair aim, how does US military presence in the Middle East differ from the colonial powers of the 18th and 19th Centuries? Not by much.”
It never ceases to amaze me how muslims NEVER look at WHY “travesties” like the 18th and 19th
century happened... Here's a history lesson concerning 18th and 19th century colonialism... The long and short of it is the Barbary wars. Basically, for the longest time, muslim pirates attacked merchant vessels of all nations that dared sail near their territories. The only way around this was if the European nations paid excorbiant tributes to various islamic leaders, even then there were no guarantees.
Fast forward to American independence. The USA fought back and eventually reduced Tripoli to dust (almost anyways). The message was, “mess with our trading vessels one more time and we'll really fuck you up.” Islamic leaders cowered, bowed and said “yes, Uncle Sam, please stop. We'll be good, we promise.”
Other European powers (Britain and France, mostly) figured “Hey, these assholes stole money from us, they're in a weakened state... Time for some payback...”
TO BE CONTINUED...
Part 3:
That's basically what happened in a nutshell. The difference between 18th century colonialism and present day US military in the middle east is that they (USA) went into the M.E. To straighten things out, by offering democracy, freedom of speech and all the other great stuff that Western Civilization can offer. Admittedly though, they did a poor assed job of it. But are you really surprised? Come on, after all the hijacked planes, embassy bombings, kidnapped (and ransomed, but sometimes murdered) tourists, flag and effigy burning, chants of “Death to the West!” and more, you mean to tell me that you didn't expect some sort of eventual reprisal? Yes, continue to ignore history and your own actions... Continue to play the victim. Just be thankful that Western nations had the presence of mind (or the lack thereof) in not returning the favor and reducing North Africa, the Middle East, Persia, and a portion of the Indian subcontinent to a paved-over parking lot.
“3. Formation of an Islamic superstate.
Another fair aim. Europe got the European Union, North America have links in NATO and East Asia got the Shanghai Pact. Not one of these organisations represents Islam, the second largest religion in the world, yet with no superpower to represent it.”
Oh, where to begin? How can an islamic caliphate be a good thing? It can't. Not by those that value freedom, love, science, and innovation. Why? Pretty much (within recorded history) every time a caliphate was established, ethnic cleansing of non-muslims became the norm, aggression to their neighbors (non-muslim neighbors) was assured, and war was the order of the day.
Oh, islam has the OIC within the U.N. You folks are doing enough damage with that organization you really don't need a caliphate anyways.
Please, read the koran and the ahadith and open your eyes. Islam is a cult of evil, and mental servitude. It offers nothing more than moral bankruptcy and hate. Yes, humanity in general can be pretty hateful, and yes, there have been many atrocities. But at least the other religions of the world don't promote hate, anger and warfare against those that are not of their own, like islam does.
The problem is that there will be people in the world that preach hate, but can only gather a small following before being reduced to non-relevance (or utterly annihilated) like communists, neo-nazis, and other fringe groups. They can be countered easily because each of these factions cannot (and will not) work together.
Islam does. And with a united front of hate... It's not something anyone wants to deal with. No one would admit it openly (especially the leftist, multicultural, politically correct liberals), but it's almost as if the collective subconsciousness of humanity knows.... KNOWS that a united islam is a very, very, VERY bad thing.
Thanks for reading.
Marsden...If Islamist laid down their weapons there would be peace, If Israel or America laid down their weapons there would no longer exist...do you get it now?
One question for Mr. Marsden.Who would you bet on to use an atomic bomb in a suicide act to kill as many of their enemy as a way to go to heaven?
Marsden,
I second the suggestion that you take a serious, objective look at the Qur'an, the hadith, the sira (early biographers of Muhammad), and several histories of Islam. Allah commanded Muhammad to use violence and war to make Islam supreme in the world. Today's jihadists are fighting in the shade of Muhammad.
An honest, sincere, objective reading of the above-mentioned books will be a real eye-opener.
Marsden
Your statements remind me of the addage that you can always BS the fans, but you should not try to BS the Players. Too bad you can't back Your statements with historical fact.
Let's start with your point #1. Isreal / Jerusalem - The fact is, Muslims are the intruders not the chosen people. Muslims destroyed the Temple of Solomn sometime in the 7th or 8th century and built the Dome of the Rock - The intent was to bury the birthplace of the Jews. Muslims also destroyed the Christian Church of the Holy Sepulchre in order to bury the birthplace of Christinanity, which is what started the Christian Crusades.
I'll debate you anytime anywhere Marsden - Your statements show a complete lack of historical knowledge.
Mr.Pat
www.mrpat.us
It sounds as if Marsden has a preconceived attitude against the USA, and then procedes to justify it. Sadly, his facts are simply wrong, but then, what else is new? I think that what is most obscene about almost every anti-American rant in favor of Islam, is the fact that Islam is not a "religion" at all. It is a fanatical, ideological, political worldview, that believes in violence to achieve it's objectives. It is extremely intolerant. No, you say? In spite of all the mosques that we allow to be built in America, all the Muslim schools that indoctrinate young people living here, try, just try, to bring a Bible into any Muslim country, and see what happens to you. And if you succeed in getting through security in that Muslim country, with only your Bible being conficated, then try to hold a Christian Worship Service anywhere in that country. They will burn the place down and behead you, and everyone who was there with you.
We need to suspend aid to all Islamic countries and leave.
reading your statment makes me wonder if you really have a clue about spec ops or any type of combat situation.. you cant second guess the intentions of a hostile person in a combat situation as you would suggest because it's your LIFE or his.. And by the way ULB was a murder he killed people that had no idea or clue of what he stood for or who he was..... HE killed for his warped seance of ideology and got just what he deserved in this world.. Now he has to deal with God..
although civilian casualties in war time is a tragic event they are a by product of war.. only understood by the people who wage, fought or lived in that type of situation/ environment. Case in point an Afgan tribal chief who commented on CNN in 2003 about the unintentional bombing of a wedding party, although he was grieved about the situation he made the comment that in war these things happen..
even thou you condem the terrorist methods you justafy their actions by agreeing to their ideology..
1- An end to the illegitimate political entity of Israel...
Israel is a legitamit Gov and Soverign people ... You nor them have the right to declare them illegitimant just because of their religion, When you do that you justify their actions and idea of complete genocide of the Jews... No better than Hiltler.... The Israelies dont go around and killing Palestinan civilians out of blue they are a reactionary county who are protecting their way of life... EVERY time their has been conflict in that region the Israelies have Reacted to violance perpatraited on them.. Just as you and i would do to protect our families.. And by the way the Christians in that part of the world are being persacuted/murdered at an all time high since any time in the last 50 years.. But i guess that's ok? check it out and google it..
2-Removal of all US military bases from the Middle East...
Big difference between a colony and a military installation.. A military installation on foreign soil is a BASE just what the word means... It's a guest of a foreign government... we are not running the gov... you obliviously havent been to irag any time lately to see the infrastructer rebuilding, gov and civilian assistance that we are providing with our own tax dollars and soldiers lives..
3- Formation of an Islamic superstate.
The formation of a religious superstate is noting like the EU, NATO or anything else.. these are Gov, Military pacs based on mutual support NOT religious Ideology... If you think a Muslim superstate would be tollerent of a Christian superstate than i think your nuts. A Muslim Superstate has no tollerance for anything non Muslim.. they will either make you submit or kill/murder you.. Heck most muslim factions dont even tollerate other different types of muslim factions.. you dont see baptist blowing up non baptists....Christianity does not have any gov/superpower to defend it's ideology either..
Sounds like liberal nonsense to me. I do believe innocent men are living on death row in America's prisons. I do believe that my faith in the American justice system is growing weaker by the hour.
However, of all the things that concern me, a nagging unease that Osama bin Laden was really a holy, pious and peace-loving man is not one of them. Present me EVIDENCE, not suppositions and grand philosophizing and I will seriously consider it. The scenario presented here is more of the same "everybody deserves a feel-good huggy kind of world" than I can currently contemplate. Give me something to hang my hat on, otherwise, liberals BE GONE.
You all for your many informed replies. I will be back from a conference Monday evening which is the earliest I can reply to your comments.
It appears I did fudge up my death statistics, I'll post my sources on Monday. One again thank you for allowing a debate like this to take place upon your blog.
Yours sincerely,
Marsden
Thank you all for your many informed replies. I will be back from a conference on Monday evening which is the earliest I can reply to your comments.
It appears I did fudge up my death statistics, I'll post my sources on Monday. One again thank you for allowing a debate like this to take place upon your blog.
Yours sincerely,
Marsden
PS First comment I submitted had typos in it.
jbh all anyone has to do is look at any place islam has taken root its like a plague, a rash on the ass of humanity
Someone left this comment:
Katherine Marsden has already made up her mind about the killing of Osama Bin Laden:
"Osama bin Laden's death was murder, plain and simple
Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Osama+Laden+death+murder+plain+simple/4736485/story.html#ixzz1LYOTaEmd"
She invokes "humanitarian international law" (IHL).
I fully agree with this as a reference frame.
We do not yet know what exactly happened in the elimination of Bin Laden.
But we do know what happened in the execution of Dr. Karen Woo by Bin Laden inspired islamists.
Predictably, googling "Katherine Marsden" and "Karen Woo" scored no results on 6 May.
Marsden, like so many others, comes out the woodwork for those who urge others to kill ... yet stays mostly silent for their countless victims!
That is the moral hypocrisy of PCs, dhimwits and leftards.
Someone emailed this comment:
(Please excuse my poor english, I never learned it at school, only from TV, reading lyrics in Vinyl-Records and now on the internet.)
It goes like this:
Dear Marsden,
Please go reading
- the quran
- the hadithes
- islamic forums on the net
When You are done, You will change the definition of islam from "religion" to geopolitical longterm-project. And besides that, You will feel very alarmed.
With kind regards
Someone emailed this:
Marsden, My mommy taught me, ‘If you want to play, you gotta pay”.
It is not a particularly difficult concept, but to the Muslim culture, it seems not so much.
Muslims started whining from the get go. When his Mecca neighbors kicked Mo out he didn’t respect their decision. Instead he licked his wounds, brooded, plundered, pillaged, paid the re-enforcements with his booty for their support, and then pounced.
That is the pattern. You must accept Me, [Islam] or you will die.
We don’t accept this doctrine, Never Will. It is anathema to our culture, our representative republic, religious heritages, intellectual bent, family structure and common sense.
You have, it appears forgotten the [16 +/-] United Nations sanctions against Iraq the preceded the war. At anytime between 1 & 16 Sadam Hussein made choices. [If you want to play, you gotta pay]. Any number of UN articles are available to enlighten you.
There appears to be no Innocents in Islam. There appears to be no Moderates in Islam. Their Silence following the death of bin Laden is deafening! From the Cradle the insidious seed of Islam sprouts and is watered by women who don’t even understand that they are but chattel to be ‘Gifts’ like bin Laden 5th wife. [My guess is she is illiterate.] But certainly scared for her life should she ‘dishonor’ her family by note marrying a man twice her age [father’s age?].
If there Is an epiphany and denial of this crushing doctrine, you Kill these apostates. Innocents indeed.
You have also forgotten why bin laden took aim at the United States. He was so willing to accept US money, tactic aide, military equipment and political support when it aided his efforts against the soviets in Afghanistan.
When Sadam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1991, bin Laden tried to persuade the Saudi’s to accept his ‘mujahedeen’ fighters to repulse the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and protect Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s accepted the US forces instead and this was the first Fatwa against the West for setting it Kafir boots onto ‘Holy Land’.
Now there’s logic for you. Al Qaeda couldn’t tell its friend from its foes, over ridden by Religious zeal. A simple Thank You would have changed the course of history! But Islam isn’t capable of it. Their Key Aims indeed.
As for your three points
Point 1:
The political entity of Israel is not only legitimate it was mandated by the world. Lets see, The Balfour Declaration, Mandate of the League of Nations, the 1947 United Nations decision, etc. It shouldn’t take you too much time to educate yourself. Now that the Arab Block controls the United Nations, perhaps you might want to lobby there. Although it might be easier to ‘just get along’, but I guess you really can’t since, every other word in the Koran is about Killing the Jews. Lovely.
Point 2:
All Military bases in the Middle East exist at the invitation of the state in which it exists. We have treaties and honor the agreements of each. Perhaps you should talk with these governments. Elect new leaders. You have choices now if I’m not mistaken.
Point 3:
If you want a Caliphate, you should make a caliphate. Self-reliance is sweet. You should experience it for yourselves. It will be a cold day in hell before the United States of American lifts one finger toward your goals. Help yourselves. Educate yourselves. Oh wait, you don’t teach natural science, math, biology, zoology, physiology, astronomy, or any other Ology in your madrassa’s. If all the ‘educated’ Muslims living in the west [hating the Kafirs they can’t befriend] returned to their homelands, wow think of all the Change that might happen.
SightseerNW
I got this email too:
Here are my responses:
1. An end to the illegitimate political entity of Israel:
This is not a legitimate demand as long as Jews are treated as inferior and second class citizens under Sharia which will be the law of the land after the State of Israel has been destroyed.
2. Removal of all US military bases from the Middle East:
Those who treat all non-muslims as inferior second class citizens cannot complain about US military bases. Are non-muslims not supposed to even defend themselves from the threat of the hateful ideology of Islam directed against them?
3. Formation of an Islamic superstate:
They just want a powerful entity to continue oppressing non-muslims under Sharia and attacking non-muslims through Jihad.
In short, none of these demands is legitimate without an Islamic Reformation.
At the same time, all of these demands are legitimate AFTER Islam has been reformed to eliminate Jihad and Sharia from Islam.
Ramachandra
Someone emailed this comment:
Hi, CW
Has Marsden read the koran? If not, may I suggest that he does so?
1. Israel is a sovereign state declared by the United Nations. Unlike its neighbours, it has not sent out suicide terrorists to blow up innocent civilians in the street or in pizza parlours. Unlike them, it teaches its children to love life more than death. Israel doesn't send "heroes" to slit the throats of sleeping Arab children in their beds. Bin Laden, a card-holding psychopath, was in no position to judge objectively the rectitude of his own aims and ambitions. Israel does not, has never, wanted to wipe out her Arab neighbours and eradicate all trace of them, unlike Islamist Hamas which mourns bin Laden's death, and wants to eradicate Israel and its Jews from the face of the earth, as its Charter says. An entity like Hamas which inculcates hatred into kindergarten children cannot hope to survive.
2. US presence in the Middle East is very different from the Muslim presence in what we now call the civilised world in the days of the Muslim prophet and immediately afterwards. At their prophet's command Muslims pillaged, took slaves, betrayed the trust of their allies and condemned millions to second class citizen status. That this person compares the two further shows his/her ignorance.
3. The formation of an Islamic superstate, as Marsden calls it is not a "fair" aim. He is making a fundamental mistake common in people who are ignorant about the true nature of Islam, of assuming that such a state will coexist peacefully with its neighbours and not try to foist its stone age mentality on them. An Islamic superstate (Caliphate) will fight and war with its neighbours, just as Caliphates spread Islam by the sword for centuries and much as the Arab states have warred with Israel, a Jewish state, because rather than accommodate difference, Islam is fearful of it. Muslims are enjoined to emulate their prophet in every particular, which includes subjugating the world to Islam.
To sum up, bin Laden was instrumental in the murders of innocents in the Twin Towers and elsewhere. The people working there were not given a fair trial, nor were the passengers in the hijacked aeroplanes. They were used as means to bin Laden's grisly ends. Why should bin Laden be afforded the rights he denied others?
He is on record as admitting those murders and inciting more. He was proud that he was guilty of them.
He got what he deserved, and far more peacefully than he deserved, compared with the agonies suffered in the Twin Towers and by the families and friends of those in whose murders he took such great pleasure.
I would like to debate, but with someone who at least may be prepared to budge. I doubt that Marsden will be capable of doing so.
And I just got this email:
I want to comment to the email.
First I condemn both the methods and aims of Al Qaeda.
What have we seen as the methods of Al Qaeda? Singling out and murdering civilians using horrific methods, subjugating the population, and destroying shrines of other religions.
The aims are even more disturbing.
1- Israel is a sovereign nation that has a right to defend itself and an obligation to it's population to do so. While we all are saddened by the death of civilians, Israel as a nation does more to protect the civilians of enemy nations than anyone on earth. You can independently check it. Enemy forces such as Hamas and Hezbollah use hospitals, schools, and neighborhoods to shelter military activities. Ambulances are used to transport weapons. Read the Fourth Geneva Convention which outlines treatment of protected people in war zones. Al Qaeda and Hamas routinely violate the provisions.
2- The United States has military bases in the Middle East at the request and permission of the applicable governments. Excluding the small host nation subsides all of the bases are losing propositions for the United States.
3- Al Qaeda wants to establish a Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East which will ultimately include the entire world. There will be no rights afforded to any non-Muslim and the entire area will be under Islamic Sharia law. Contrast this with NATO (a mutual defense treaty organization) or the EU (an economic union) which afford basic freedoms to all religions (including Islam) and are not the same as a Caliphate which is politically an Islamic state.
Thank you for providing me the opportunity to respond to this article.
Mark Goldstein
Nashville, TN USA.
to Marsden: I am a woman. What happens to me when this death cult gains power? Many of the people who are killed all over the world are Muslims, killed by this insane ideology. Re: Israel, many countries are Muslim majority and many more in the process of being occupied by so called "immigration". Why would you want to destroy our one real cultural ally in the Middle East. All, like you who cannot see that this horrible, throwback culture is dangerous to modern civilization,
must have a DEATH WISH.
Mona Charen writes in her article "How Osama bin Laden resembled Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky, and others on the Left" that Bin Laden "drunk deeply from the well of hatred for America that nourishes everyone from Hugo Chavez to Vladimir Putin"
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/05/how-osama-bin-laden-resembled-michael-moore-noam-chomsky-and-others-left#ixzz1LZtp2en7"
Predictably the Leftards came out in full force, a de facto "wrath of leftards", in the comments.
But it is a worth while read if only to see what comes out of the woodwork in the form of dhimwits, leftards and PCs.
None of these will ever acknowledge that the pile of corpses built by Stalin and Mao was even greater than those that Hitler himself assembled.
Stuck in their Anti-Imperialist Meme-complex they are incurable.
Ultimately it is not Al Qaeda or the Greater Islamist Army that will destroy us but the Intelligentsia of Western Useful Idiots amongst us.
They would rather support the worst of violators of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights than see the Western system of liberal secular democracies survive.
After all, if Islamists ever have their way, the Planet will be governed by a system of total religious totalitarianism.
Where on earth did you get the AlQuaeda/Taliban death figures? These seem like the estimates from these wars alone. But how about the deaths caused by those two groups that were never reported in any media, let alone the Western media. The taliban have a reported habit of doing away with anyone that opposes them in any way. Kinda like the drug cartels in nearby Mexico.
Relating the Taliban with defense of their nation is like relating the Catholic Church with going to war for every conntry they have a presence in. The Taliban are knoiwn to operate in Afghanistan, Palistan, Syria, Jordan, India, and Saudi Arabia. Al Quaeda are known to operate in USA, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Germany, Spain, Israel, Qutar, Dubai, Yemen, Egypt, France, Denmark, UK, Canada, Venezuela, Somolia, Italy, Holland, do you get th picture. Which country are they trying to defend? Or, is it overthrow? One of the goals of the Taliban is to instill the rigid Islamic faith upon all nations and people; and kill all infadels (those who will not convert to Islam.) in the process.
Is the statement an end to Israel referring to the political state or the descendants of the biblical person Israel? That definition is very critical as the descendants category covers a very large number of people. All of the non-Arabic world population is what that statement includes. Were that to be the goal then there wouold be only one religion allowed.
The presence of military bases is colonialism? Bull. Colonialism is the domination and enslavement of the indigit population for the purpose of obtaining the material resources of that country. Hardly something we do. Toequate otherwise is to subscribe to the propaganda of the Islamic groups that want no presence of any nation whose philosophy is based upon personal freedom of its people. For, as soon as a person is free to choose enslavement (mental or physical) over freedom the inevitable choice is freedom. And, the USA is the ensign of that way of life.
On the subject of colonialism, General Colin Powell, when challenged about the colonialism of Europe by the USA, said it very well, "The only land we have asked for is a place to bury our dead." In the middle east we didn't even ask for that. Our bases are there for the ability to support efforts to defeat our enemies in the region. And, Al Quaeda brought that distinction upon themselves when their leader, Usama Bin Laden, declared war on the USA. The Taliban is an armed faction that is in direct support of them. When we began to chase Al Quaeda it was the Taliban that protected them. The war with those two groups was initiated by them when they blew up our embassies and bases, attacked our citizens abroad, and finally launched terror attacks on US soil on 9/11/2001; they brought this war to us. And, our history is to defeat those who do things like this. Once we have done so we ease out of the picture and they run their own nations. (i.e. England after 1812, Spain after the attack on the US Navy in Cuba, Japan and Germany after WW2.)
Someone emailed this comment:
Marsden may sound reasonable to people who agree with him and I certainly to not! Tell him to read "Son of Hamas". He should learn how the Palestinian Authority has no aim to settle with Israel. He should understand that radical Muslims are really trying to take over the world. If he could consider that he would also feel, as I do, that anything to stop them is the only way!
Someone just left this comment:
Marsden seems to be coming from a position that Al Quaeda is the problem, not Islam or the role model of the so called Prophet Muhammad. The 3 points listed are all legitimate Islamic doctrines, not some extraneous version. Al Quaeda is simply following Islam and the role model of the so called prophet Muhammad. In fact, Mark Durie says that Al Quaeda and the Taliban are the equivalent of the Reformation in Islam. Read his eye opening article here:
http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2010/01/they-are-reformation.html
As for the point about numbers killed, there are some important differences.
1. Killing non-muslims is part of the teachings of the Koran, and therefore more insidious as it is part of the collective subconscious of muslims.
2. The deaths from US forces are nearly all collatoral damage, but by Jihad will kill innocents on purpose.
3. 25% of muslims believe that killing innocents is ok if it done for Islam (see Pew research).
4. Over the 1400 years that Islam has plagued the world, millions upon millions of innocents have lost their lives as a direct cause of the Koran and teachings of Muhammad.
Osama bin Laden was following the blueprint of the example of Muhammad, as it says 91 times in the Koran every Muslim should do.
For non-Muslims, there is nothing to like about Muhammad's example:
What Educated Non-Muslims Don't Like About Islam in a Nutshell
Citizen Warrior,
Also some Muslims have openly stated that they think that no non Muslims is ever innocent, simply because they are not Muslims. Remember Anjum Chaudri?
Killing of Non-Muslims is Legitimate (British Mullah) - True Filthy Faces of Mullahs
Based on the video, you can see how using that depraved logic, people like him, can justify any evil their coreligionists do to someone just because they are not a member of their faith.
Marsden has left off what is – to me – the more pertinent argument in the debate over what to do with UBL. In addition, Marsden also seems to assume that the three reasons for al Qaeda's terroristic attacks are legitimate. I like to use the argument that although there are REASONS for blah, blah, blah… there are no EXCUSES.
Another annoying thing about the piece is that Marsden conflates morality with legitimacy. I will grant that there is a logic to Marsden's plea for us to try and understand al Qaeda and its now-dead #1, Usama bin Laden: It's a plea for sympathy. I get that, completely, but my sympathies lie with the Israelis, the infidels and the U.S. The Israelis haven't murdered anyone in sixty years, not since the King David Hotel bombing; they have killed and some of those killed were noncombatants.
If I were of a mind to condemn Marsden's piece for anything it would be for #3, formation of an Islamic superstate; nothing “fair” about it. The U.S. founding documents were quite specific in their aim to protect us from any religious governance. Governance is, obviously, different from practice; we are all permitted to practice our religions, worship our god/s, and so forth, as long as we do not violate the Constitution. Seems to me most of the objection to religious practice comes from those who practice none, but I'm going off-point. Why does any religion need a “superpower to represent it”? (That's just plain silly, M. What were you thinking?) If Marsden is annoyed that the U.S. Is known as a “Judeo-Christian” nation, Marsden must disapprove of the Founding documents and the Judeo-Christians who prepared it. Me thinks that Marsden doesn't understand that it is only through understanding Judeo-Christian doctrine that we know where “liberty” comes from; if liberty is not important then the Constitution is a waste of paper. I happen to appreciate liberty, so it matters to me that the U.S. Is founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
It's harder to explain my position on U.S. Bases around the world, however. I hope Marsden is not implying that those bases indicate there are “imperial” motives afoot because, again, I hate to use the word but it would be silly to conflate military bases with land-grabbing, people-enslaving and resource-stealing imperialists.
Lastly, I don't have the numbers but I daresay Americans have saved more lives than they have taken, but that's a moral argument and Marsden probably won't go down that road. I shouldn't have said that was my last statement because I need to throw in what is my only necessary argument and that is that God hates evil. And evil isn't just in the eye of the beholder, it is in the heart of the perpetrator. That's why the laws in the U.S. Take into account “intent” when judging someone's conduct or behavior or actions. What you intended is the meat of the judgment for or against you. I would have empathy for someone who killed their children because they were trying to protect them from something worse than death.
I almost forgot to make a distinction between the al Qaeda number of killings and the U.S. Number of killings. Why didn't you mention the Saddam Hussein killings? Why does the number matter so much? Al Qaeda doesn't have the resources to kill more but I'm fairly certain that if they did, their numbers would be much higher. Again, it's a matter of values and judgments and intention. al Qaeda, for example, intends to annihilate a segment of the Earth's population for their own reasons and the U.S. does not.
Someone emailed this:
I would like to respond to Mr. Marsden's self-serving babble!
Sir,
1.) You call Israel illigimate. The rest of the world does not! You have declared WAR on Israel, they have not declared war on you! And yes, as in most conflicts some pretty bad thing may have happened but let me ask you this, does Israel make the rockets that are launched into their civilian populations? Do the Israelies rejoice and have parties when a Palistanian family is killed in their sleep with their throats cut? Do Jews blow up planes? Do Jews shoot innocent travelers in airports or blow them up on subways and trains? Do Jews behead newspaper reporters? If you have an honest answer to those questions then you will realize your argument is not valid. And to your comment regarding the deaths of Christians, we would be outraged!! Just as we are outraged over the genoside the Muslims are commiting in Samolia and other African countries. The slauter of hundreds of thousands of Christians. Just as we were outraged by the killing of muslims in Bosnia, or did you conveniently forget about those?
2.) Thankfully, our military is there temporarily. And, we lay no claim to the land or superiority over the residents of the middle east. The sooner we leave, the better. Thats how it differs from the colonial powers sir. And, we build schools, hospital, roads and voting booths. These are the very things you and your Taliban friends hate. Thus your biasis.
3.) The formation of the Islamic superstate governed by Sharia is promoted by your Quoran. There is not one single member of the Euroean Union, NATO, UN or any other orginization in the world since the Nazies who speak of world domination. Nor does the Christian Bible call for world domination. Only Islam champions world domination! And with that domination, the distruction of the western civilization thru taxation or death. How do you expect us to respond to your goals sir? Open up to you with welcome arms? I don't think so!
Finally, your numbers on KILLS are very skewed! You obviously only get your information from one chosen source. The government of Pakistan estimates that Al Qaeda has killed 20,000+ Muslims in Pakistan alone. And we have not touched Iraq, Mombi, Afganistan, Samolia, Saudi Arabia, New Youk City, Washington D.C., Bali, The Phillipines, Spain, France, Germany, Russia or England/Scotland. And those don't include the Taliban.
Finally, we did not condem Osama as a murderer. He admitted it!!! We only suspected him until he admitted to killing over 3000 innocent Americans.
OUR ADMINISTRATIONS DUPLICITY is as BAD as the ISLAM'S DUPLICITY. I have heard them say over and over again that Bin Laden was NOT A MUSLIM....THEN WHY THE FOCUS ON "BURYING" HIM AS ONE????
What this person doesn't realize is that the ultimate aim of Islam is to deny people freedom of choice and democracy. Government by sharia law is an obligation for Muslims. Unfortunately innocents have always been killed in wars. When combatants use innocents as human shields what can one expect? In Iraq, I believe that innocents were prevented from leaving towns by militants who were "hell bent" on martyrdom. Unfortunately you only discover that a house you just blew-up held innocents as well as militants after the fact. To not destroy militants when the chance comes is tactical suicide. The "jihadists" (in their madness) probably believe that any innocents who die with them also get into "paradise." Bin Laden's death should be applauded by all.
Anonymous,
I agree, I'm glad Bin Laden is no more.
The underlying problem with Marsden's post is common to our critics, that of presenting false information as fact.
First, the casualty analysis is wrong:
Who Died In Iraq
"August 30, 2010: With only 50,000 American troops left in Iraq, and none of them committed to full time combat operations, one can get a sense of what the human cost of the seven year war was. Foreign forces lost 4,735 troops (93 percent American). Iraqi security forces lost about 6,000 police and soldiers. About 100,000 Iraqi civilians died, but over a third of these were members of terrorist groups (mostly Sunni, including al Qaeda). Another ten percent were members of various anti-terrorist militias. The U.S. tried to identify as many dead enemy fighters as it could, but those numbers are currently classified. Based on information that did leak out, it's clear that the terrorist groups lost over 30,000 people. Most of the civilians were killed by terrorists, most of the terrorist deaths were caused by American troops."
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/20100830.aspx
So the terrorists killed most of the civilians, and we killed most of the terrorists. Similarly, figures are now placing Taliban-caused civilian deaths in Afghanistan at about 75%.
Taking alive? Trial? Our country is considerably more considerate about unnecessary casualties than we were in the past, but there is a war going on and we were morally in the right with WWII carpet bombing of German cities. We were actually on the moral high ground with daylight precision bombing to minimize civilian casualties, but the British were also within their rights because night area bombing was safer for the aircraft crews. In war we put our safety above the enemies.
What point of a trial? OBL took credit for what he did. There was no need to investigate to determine whether or not he really did the things we thought he did. He was on our national hit list. Any bounty hunter was authorized by the US to kill him, just like the Wild West Wanted Posters - "Wanted - Dead or Alive". Could you imagine if we had to try to take every Nazi soldier captive instead of shooting to kill? What would a trial establish? That the soldier was a member of Hitler's armed forces? This level of ridiculousness is reflected in this piece about Libya:
We're Fighting A War, But We Really Don't Want To Hurt Anyone, And If We Do, We Are So Sorry
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/libya/articles/20110502.aspx
"Israel has murdered hundreds of innocent Palestinan civilians."
Big fat straw man. Where are the murdered Palestinians? So many of the photos released by the Palestinians are proven fake. Israel has the world's most conscientious army in the world with regards to civilian casualties, even more so than the US. They even call people at home and tell them to get out of the area before a strike. Clearly the jihadis are the murderers in this conflict.
"Removal of all US military bases from the Middle East."
And why did we have military bases in the Middle East? We were asked there to drive Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. We are always coming to the aid of Muslim countries and condemned for it. We are not colonialists. We are everywhere in the world to help. Nearly every country in the world gets US aid money with the exception of some rogue states like Cuba, Iran and North Korea.
"Formation of an Islamic superstate." This has more in common with Hitler's dream of a Greater Germany to rule the world than the EU. The EU was formed peacefully. Islam is totalitarian and is spread by the sword when it is able, and by stealth when it is not.
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